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  1. 10 likes
    Hi folks, As micks garage are kindly sponsoring some goodies for Mazdafest, they asked for a blog post about the rotary engine in general and some essential maintenance tips on keeping them healthy. Here's the first part which they're hoping to post up today (link to follow) the second part will follow soon. hopefully I didn't make too much of a pigs ear of it!! (Formatting didn't come across so excuse the layout) 50 years of Rotary – the pursuit of perfect imperfection. “As machines become more and more efficient and perfect, so it will become clear that imperfection is the greatness of man” - Ernst Fischer This year marks the 50th anniversary of the first rotary engine that Mazda produced and doggedly continued to champion until a mixture of increasingly onerous legislation and the design's own particular quirks saw it finally consigned to history in 2012. The rotary engine has a reputation for being complex, temperamental, unreliable and hard to maintain but the reality is that nothing could be further from the truth! Sure, it's unconventional but, with a modicum of knowledge, a little bit of care and a willingness to get your hands a tiny bit dirty every once in a while, you can be rewarded with years of trouble free driving and a unique experience that only a free-revving rotary engine can give you. So,what is a rotary engine and how does it work? Well, very simply is the answer! The engine follows the basic principles of intake, compression, power and exhaust (or suck, squeeze, bang blow) as the diagram below shows; As you can see however, there are some fundamental differences which do warrant a brief explanation. Firstly, there is a startling lack of pistons involved – what you have instead is a rotor (the 'triangl-y' bit) which rotates around a shaft, inside a housing. This design means that you can dispense with a large number of moving parts and reduce it down to, in essence, the rotor, the housing, the shaft, a few gears and some seals which keep everything air, water and oil tight* – that’s pretty much it really – now, what's so complicated about that?? *(in reality, you'll have to multiply the above parts by two as pretty much every rotary engine you're likely to encounter has two rotors, one behind the other). The next difference requires a tiny bit of visualisation – unlike a piston engine where the 4 cycles (suck, squeeze, bang, blow) need to be completed before the next phase begins, the rotary engine design is much closer to the concept of perpetual motion. If you look closely at the diagram above, you may be able to see that as the top of the rotor is in its 'suck' phase, the right hand section is in its 'bang' phase and the bottom is in its 'blow' phase, no matter where the rotor sits at any given point, there are three of the four phases happening simultaneously. What this means in practice is that the engine never takes a breather, it’s a constant ball of motion and energy, creating heat and power at a frenetic rate that piston engines simply could never match. The fact that the eccentric shaft of the engine runs through the centre of the rotors an housing means that it can rotate at a much higher speed, much more smoothly without adding excessive stress, and it's this design that allows the rotary engine to run up to 10,000 rpm very happily and extremely smoothly whilst still producing maximum power – in short, it simply doesn’t let up. So, a simple engine that has few moving parts, that generates power ‘all the way up to 11’ and delivers it with unrivalled smoothness – sounds perfect right? Well, not quite if I'm 100% honest. There are some inherent faults which, through a mixture of misunderstanding and bad timing, have ultimately led to the sad demise of the rotary engine. Firstly, the tips of the rotors are sealed to the housings by thin strips of metal known as apex seals, these are seated on springs which constantly push them against the housings, maintaining compression in the chambers. As you can imagine, metal rubbing on metal at speeds of up to 10,000 rpm will not last too long without some kind of cooling and lubrication so the engine uses a metering pump to spray engine oil into the chamber to keep everything running smoothly. Using the incorrect oil, allowing the oil to run low or a failure of the oil metering pump or feeding lines can all lead to the apex seals wearing down or breaking, in turn leading to loss of compression. Secondly, the heat – MY GOD THE HEAT!!!! - Whereas a piston engine ignites one stroke out of every four, the rotary engine at full chat is a constant cycle of explosiveness generating a tremendous amount of heat. In an engine, heat is the enemy of efficient power production and the extreme heat that rotary engines produce can result in a number of failure points if it is not addressed by some simple preventative measures. Thirdly, the only thing a rotary loves better than being revved beyond oblivion is petrol! These are definitely not cars for hyper-milers or those commuting long distances, or, for that matter, those who do lots of traffic driving, nor those who are concerned (in any way shape or form) about the environment, neither for those who consider fuel economy when purchasing a car at all really. They are thirsty cars which need to be revved in order to deliver power and, whilst technically, they may be 1.3 litre engines, they will go through as much fuel as a 3.1 litre - and then some. As mentioned earlier though, there are some simple steps that can be taken to address these potential problems (see the next blog post) and, if done with a reasonable degree of diligence, there is no reason at all that any rotary engined car will not deliver you years of trouble free driving. That driving, by the way, is guaranteed to be a completely different experience that you will ever get from a piston powered car. With excellent chassis' that grip for days, high power to weight ratios and 50:50 weight distribution, the way a rotary car handles is simply unrivalled. Add to that the sound of twin rotors screaming up to the red line and the constant linear delivery of power and what you are left with is an intoxicating mix of involvement, connection to the road and, quite frankly sheer joy which is nothing short of exhilarating. It’s definitely something that all drivers need to consider at least once in their lifetime. In a world where Instagram filters, duck faces and social media streams are constant and unbroken feeds of people desperate to show us their 'perfect' lives, sometimes it’s a relief to realise that true perfection lies in the flawed beauty that surrounds us and reminds us all that we are all human and never blemish free. To have accomplished what they did in a short period of time and as a single company battling convention, Mazda should be applauded – and I shiver to think what could have been if the mainstream had thrown their collective efforts, knowledge and finances behind developing the technology on a world-wide scale! In todays’ age of self-driving, lane assisted, electronically controlled marvels of refined engineering, the rotary cars produced by Mazda over the past 50 years are a perfect example of how beautiful flaws can be – the weathered face that stands out in a room of pretty banality, the one you are drawn too because you know it has a story you want to hear. To quote Marilyn Monroe; “Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and it's better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring” If you can embrace this, you very soon realise just how right Mazda got things with the rotary cars – yes they are ridiculous in ways, yes they are far, far, from perfect but, you know what – that imperfection is what makes them a perfect machine and an essential experience for those who still like to live life one analogue mile at a time – at least occasionally.
  2. 6 likes
    Cheers for the offer Jamie but I've got it sorted with the rotary gurus out in Shadow Rotary. Aidan, I thought about going to the guy I got to rebuild it but I've no faith in him. Dropped out to Eoin and Anthony today and had a long discussion about the problem I'm having and they think it maybe fuel related at best, rebuilt at worst[emoji33] Saw a few torn down engines out there that were rebuilt by the same guy who did my rebuild. One in particular was where he used the wrong apex springs, racing springs on a standard Mazda apex seal, the whole thing blew apart [emoji85][emoji33] I could have spent the whole day out there with the guys talking about rotary stuff and looking around but alas I had to let them get back to work. Anyway I left my keys with Eoin as he'll call out to the house and drive my baby to their workshop. He said he'll have no problems driving her in the state she's in as he's done it before and it'll save on towing charges. He's a feckin gem[emoji106] So should have an update in a couple of days or so. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  3. 5 likes
    Few more parts added to the stock pile of items to be fitted. I decided that I was just going to bite the bullet and make this a one time hit on everything engine related and do it while the engine is out. To recap, the current ongoing jobs are: 1. Refit my freshly rebuilt twin turbos that Tom Cooney in Portlaoise has rebuilt for me. 2. New turbo gaskets, intake manifold gaskets and throttle body gaskets 3. Rebuild alternator 4. Fit new waterpump and belts 5. Have already fitted the new fast acting intake temp switch 6. Fit the V-Mount intercooler and rad set up. V-Mount needs some piping altered so need an aluminium welder to help here 7. Fit my 3" downpipe. Already have the decat. Fit my Titanium exhaust system. 8. Improve the wiring for the fuel pump. 9. Relocate battery due to the intercooler. While I am doing the above, I just decided I'm going to add a few more items to the list so have ordered. AEM Smart Coil set up with relocation plates to replace the old 23 year old ignition system. Good spark is important and this should future proof the car. Also, replacement coils are >€100 and easy get. AEM V2 Water Injection kit, to keep intake temps in check. Just going to run water although you can run 50:50 water:meth through the system too. Doing this as a safety mod. Unintentionally, another AEM item, a Wideband sensor and gauge. Wanted to keep it retro looking so this was the most suitable to my taste. WIll add a few more complementary gauges, oil and water temp I think!
  4. 5 likes
    Fitted led sidelights - should look good at night I think and at night - I think they'll have to come out for the NCT !
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    Belfast and back, 400 kms with 1/4 tank left, would have made the 500 km club if it had been a longer drive, pleased with that on an 120km engine! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  6. 4 likes
    After wanting an rx7 for years finally picked one up few weeks back. Plan is just to improve on this car there has been few bits done to it just need to complete it to what i want the car to be Car has few bit including Apexi ECU Power FC with hand commander Coilovers Celtic tiger sound system (Which needs to be ripped out and standard interior put back in) Greddy intake manifold. Car came with horrible wheels: got that sorted last week with the purchase of Rota gtr-d's 9.5 et12 all round with dunlop sportmaxx tyres.
  7. 4 likes
    Started the wheels - hopefully will end up with polished lips and titanium grey spokes. So far I've learned that plastidip sucks arse and that there's a lot of sanding involved plastidip peeled off and stripper applied Mostly stripped First two runs on the lips and first rub down of the spokes Lips ready for polishing all shiny now! Rub down the spokes again now, mask up and etch primer, filler primer, flatten and start painting
  8. 4 likes
    Our spare rooms have been bagged but we've got lots of space for camping and parking at our place. Googlemaps "Adelboden Lodge" Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
  9. 4 likes
    This arrived today, can start the wheel refurb this weekend
  10. 4 likes
    Can't upload pictures don't know why??? But I just love my car. I was and still am a motorcycle lover,,,,,,, ride every day. But this car is as close to driving a bike as I've ever come to Just love it
  11. 3 likes
    Hey guys! I know I'm new to this forum but I have been chatting to a couple of members here and on Facebook and have been told you guys enjoy the odd meet?! Myself and a friend started BHP (Bring Hoon Play) Ireland a few months ago and so far it's going well but there is a serious lack of Rotary Cars at the meets. I have just got my hands on an RX8 and finally get why they are so addictive I'm also a BMW head ... mainly E36s - Don't hold that against me! We realised that bar the monthly coffee and cars meet there aren't many regular meets. SO we started BHP with the plan to meet up every 2 weeks in one location, have some coffee, food, get some photos taken and have the chats, then head off for a drive to a second location. Each location will be different and so far after 7 months (I think!) we haven't been to the same location twice ... until this week We are starting in Carrickmines Retail Park this Friday at 8pm and hopefully heading off at 9.30pm. See the Facebook link below. https://www.facebook.com/events/127995944450304/?acontext={"action_history"%3A"[{\"surface\"%3A\"page\"%2C\"mechanism\"%3A\"page_upcoming_events_card\"%2C\"extra_data\"%3A[]}]"%2C"has_source"%3Atrue} I hope that link works! Our Facebook Page is BHP Ireland. We have one main rule at the meet which is simply no messing at each location. This is so we don't get banned from where we are meeting. We joined with another group a few weeks back and had around 50-60 cars in Blanchardstown Shopping Centre and the night was a great success! I know the meet won't be anything like MazdaFest but I thought I'd invite some of you guys along as well! Jimmy
  12. 3 likes
    Hey guys, finally managed to get a photo of my car!
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    The camping list is for the Saturday afternoon/night. However, given that the track is open until 6pm on the Sunday, if anyone wants avoid a long drive after, they're also welcome to stay over Sunday night. There are good clean changing rooms with showers at the track, in the same building as the restaurant. Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
  14. 3 likes
    I mostly use Bilt Hamber products and find them very good. That wheel cleaner is brilliant stuff, but it does stink. The surfex HD is great for cleaning down wheel arches, engine bay, and underfloor, just spray or brush it on, leave it for a few min and power wash off. Their clay bars work a treat for getting tar and tree sap off. they are not the cheapest but they are good, and they do some very good value bundles, either buy direct from them, or OPIE oils also sell their product. If you don't want to buy from the UK the Detailing shed in Blanchardstown also stock it.
  15. 3 likes
    D585's have been known to fail/breakdown when hot, that's becoming more common as more of these are being fitted and proving to be less bulletproof than expected. That said, you might be right about the fuel mix. Nearly all cars with an ECU suffer from this to a greater or lesser extent, as the intake air temperature is initially very high due to the heat soak and then drops massively, as the static air is eaten and replaced with cold air from outside. Rotary engines are more sensitive to this as the engine bay tends to get hotter and the volume of air consumed is greater. Basically the ECU is trying to balance the cold engine with (what it detects as) high IAT, when the IAT suddenly drops back down again. Worse case this can cause the engine to stall, or try and stall, or at least make it unresponsive to the throttle for the first minute or so. Even parking a car in the sun on a cold bright day can create the conditions to trigger this, though the impact might be too transitory to notice. If your car has recently been much more susceptible to this and you can't explain it due to weather conditions, then you might have a problem with the IAT sensor, that's orange blob on the MAF sensor unit, or the ambient air temperature sensor. If you plugin an ODB2 dongle (bluetooth for Android or WiFi for iOS) you can use Torque to monitor these in real time and see if the readings make sense. AAT is also displayed on the dash if you press the AMB button. We did have one car that was playing-up at specific parts of a daily commute but okay at other times, which turned out to be the remains of a plastic bag that had got trapped behind the front bumper and was wrapped around the AAT sensor, insulating it from the chill of the outside air.
  16. 3 likes
    My username on this forum was lost during some forum upgrade, hence the new user. I bought my 2005 Velocity Red 230 back in 2013 and kept it on the road for 2 years but as insurance got too expensive I tried to sell it. No one wanted an 8 without a brand new engine so it was just sitting collecting dust. Can't sell the car and it's too nice to scrap so feck it, I'm putting it back on the road. Just slapped some tax and insurance onto it and I've a date for the NCT. Feels good to be back lads.
  17. 3 likes
    Looking at driving directions from Dublin to Vladivostok - and henceforth, the ferry to Japan and on to Hiroshima. I hear the trans-siberian has been fully paved. 21 days driving. 3 solid weeks of 8 hour days across the top of russia. 2000 litres of petrol. 33 stops - or an average of 2 per day if we're not draining the tank. 1 mid-way service. Be some fucking story to pull it off in an RX - and just hand the keys back over at the factory. Cost something like 5-6k to do, mind. With fuel being half that. And God knows what Russian petrol would be like.
  18. 3 likes
    Good news is: I checked Just Eat and there are many food deliveries in the area. And better news. The wife said YES, piss off and enjoy yourself with your weirdo friends.... YAH!
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    Huge lawn and carpark both available, with the option of " indoor camping" if the weather's nasty, in large hall with toilet, plus various sofa beds etc. Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
  21. 3 likes
    So I got a little spare unplanned time today so I got stuck into the number 2 RX8. So trying to shape it up to get the engine out so a few snaps for yez
  22. 3 likes
    Tonight I parted ways with the Kuro Although she's literally only moved around the corner from me, so I'll still see her around, hopefully we'll have a new member soon, too. New owner even came up the NCT centre with me this evening to see her through the test. Hopefully I'll be able to start looking for a project car later in the year, although I can't decide weather I want to buy a cheap RX8, or look for a MK1 MX5 and try a rotary swap.
  23. 3 likes
    Started practicing for the wheels first pass 320grit on one side first pass finished Second pass 600grit Another three to go, 1200grit 2000grit wet and polish compound and should get near the finish I'm looking for (I hope!!!) getting there!!
  24. 3 likes
    When refitting the sidelights do it with them switched on. It confirms that you've got them the right way round in the holder and it makes it much easier to find the hole, looking from the outside. Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
  25. 3 likes
    Got a few bits myself for Tiffany.. Got the rear discs upgraded with some decent brembo pads, some mt90 for the tranny, new silicone piping for the catch can, and braided brake lines on the way. Lightened Flywheel is next on the list .. the never ending list lol
  26. 3 likes
    I think we're trying to organise a parade lap at the end of the day - would be great to see 100 Mazdas out on the track at one time for some photos and the noise!!!
  27. 3 likes
    Well Im really happy as mine passed the nct tonight minus the exhaust shrouds, extra special as I was told tonight that my County Sligo has the highest failure rate NCT in the country
  28. 3 likes
    The RX7 came first day with a really slow acting intake temp sensor. This sits in the intake manifold at the top of the engine and of course is subject to heat soak. Problem is, as it acts so slow it soaks in traffic and still reads a high temp for some time after you get moving again and gives an inaccurate reading. The internet says to change to a Triumph motorbike IAT sensor. Has the same thread to fit the intake manifold but doeshave a different electrical connector! I spotted a complete manifold for sale on a UL forum that had the sensor but also had a secondary throttle body removed. The secondary system is a safety feature to minimise damage by going WOT on a cold engine. It's a set of butterflys that are operated by a wax bullet that melts as the engine heats up and opens accordingly. If you're not a idiot, this isn't required so should also have the added benefit of removing a slight restriction on the intake. Ended up swapping this for a similar one that had been vapour blasted. Started the process of swapping these over this week. WHen I removed the old one, I was met with a home made gasket made for plastic. Thought it might have been one of those thermo gasket things to reduce heat soak but this is definitely a home made job, doesn't exactly match the ports either. This lead me to check the gasket on the lower intake manifold and its even worse!!! No pics due to where it is. I've ordered new gaskets also from RHD Japan today along with the turbo gaskets. With the upper intake manifold off, the "Rats Nest" was revealed. It is truly terrifying! While poking around the engine I decided to get a few items tidied up: Water pump was making some funny noises so ordered a new OEM Mazda one. Have a lower temp SARD thermostat ordered, new RE-Amemiya rad cap and AST caps. Removed the power steering pump to have the casings vapour blasted along with a few more housings and the throttle body (which looks mad, see pics below). Also collected a good number of nuts and bolts to be zinc coated. All in the box went to a local lad for vapour blasting/zinc coating Friday..
  29. 3 likes
    No significant progress yet. Replaced the engine CTS on Saturday. She'll start if I keep the gas pedal to the floor and release it when she catches. Holds idle for a few minutes then dies. Able to drive her as long as the revs are kept at 2,000rpm. It's a bitch when stopping in traffic or at lights. Trying to get a hold of the lads in Shadow Rotary is like trying to catch my own farts[emoji23][emoji23] The next time Jamie's in Dublin I'm gonna get him to do a compression test if I'm not able to get a hold of the Shadow guy gurus [emoji106] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    I can get a portaloo for £150 if camping on my property, barbie available, I have a small one and your welcome to bring your own.
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    Love oil changes so easy,another double oil change today after another 1500 miles. And put on the climair deflectors as well. Pleased how they looked on
  34. 2 likes
    50 was the number we where going for as it's what we needed to make sure we could charge everyone a reasonable price for the track day along with being able to make sure all the costs for the day where covered along with making sure the day itself was free entry for show & shine entrants + spectators , I can squeeze in a couple more than 50 with the payments going back into the site possibly for next year's event but at the end of the day I don't want to overdo it and pile the track with cars rushing everyone on and off , like directing 50 track cars successfully on and off track in groups throughout the whole day will certainly be a task in itself so we will need people to cooperate help us out a bit by adhering to their specific times and groups so we can run the day as smoothly as possible making sure everyone gets their fair share of seat time.... @Aido 8 if you are looking for a spot you will need to send over payment as soon as to secure your spot, after this week I can almost certainly say there will be no spots left Cheers John
  35. 2 likes
    Booked a guy from Belfast to come do my AC tomorrow, if he does a good job, will invite him to the event.
  36. 2 likes
    Having identified that the best mod you can make to improve lap times is to sort out the nut holding the steering wheel, aka Driver Tuition, the next best mod is to fix the arse in the driver's seat. See this thread on RX8OC http://www.rx8ownersclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=169&t=49359 The RX8OC shop is open to non-members, so any of you can take advantage of the discount offer. I've been chatting with Ian (RX8OC Shopkeeper) about the possibility of getting a few shipped over for me to take along on the day, as this would save on postage and provide "instant" delivery, with the option of free fitting (though that's easy anyway). You could buy on-line now and request delivery via me, or indicate on here if you're interested, just so I know how many to get shipped across.
  37. 2 likes
    credit union time so haha would like to have something bought by end of summer and make my own over the winter would be the plan
  38. 2 likes
    No excuse, we've lads from cork, Kerry, Limerick and the uk all coming
  39. 2 likes
    Hi everybody! I started a new topic just so it wont get confusing on the original Event topic... So i was on to Donal O'Neill from Trackskills, he does sit in driver tuition at a lot of track days, he is also one of only three senior A.R.D.S. instructors in Ireland. I know there are quite a few drivers down with track time experience including myself but i have never had tuition in my own rx8 so id be fairly keen on taking Donal's offer up, i think it would be a great opportunity for people especially if it is their road car they will be driving on the day to test the limits of their vehicle under the guidance of someone with such a wealth of experience, but for anyone who has never had an instructor at a track day or even has never had a car on track Donal will be able to cater to all levels of experience to help improve your driving, improve your lap times and your confidence on track. The Format we are hoping to achieve on the day will be 4 groups of cars with 4 sessions per hour meaning 20 sessions for the day, which will be roughly around 8-10 laps per session, so that equates to every driver getting between 40-50 laps each. This means we can have 20 sessions of driver tuition. The cost will be £15 for a session with Donal which will be paid on the day, when taken into context it is a very reasonable cost and money well spent in my eyes considering what you will learn through even one session with Donal. as i said there will be a maximum of 20 sessions so there will only be 20 spaces available...if you would like one just comment below with your name If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask Thanks John 1. John (Mazda rx8)2. Ian Kirwan (Mazda mx5)3. Jon Hill (Mazda mx5)4. Dave kilbean (Mazda rx8)5. Dara O'Brien (Mazda rx?)6. Joe Hughes (Mazda rx8)7. James pike (Mazda mx5)8. Yasir yassin (Mazda rx7 FC)9. James O Connor (Mazda rx7 FD)10. Richie De Courcy (Mazda rx8)11. Patrick McKenna (Mazda rx8)12. Jonathan babb (Mazda mx5)13. Con furey (Mazda rx?)14. Ambrose furey (Mazda rx8)15. Dave Emerson (Mazda rx8)16. JP o Mara (Mazda RE-MX5) 17. Nicolas Skrotzky (Mazda rx7 FC) 18. Scott Kidd (Mazda rx8)19. Steven Theed (Mazda rx7)20. Patrick Gabbett (Mazda mx5)
  40. 2 likes
    URGENT. I have been down to cut the grass on the lower garden and found raw sewage all over, the tank seems to be ruptured. The guys are coming out tomorrow to see what is wrong. If it's what I think, a tree root going through it, big troubles for me and bank balance. If this can't be fixed and cleaned up in time.. I can't let anyone camp here on the 8th. I can only say sorry, but will keep you all informed. I'm going to ask neighbour i us to camp on her lawn. Is there camping available at track site?
  41. 2 likes
    Well lads, just took the plunge and got my first rotary, first gen rx-8 231 bhp with only 53 miles on it. Based around clare, looking forward to meets and chats
  42. 2 likes
    I'd love to go! But my sister's wedding is on that weekend
  43. 2 likes
    Welcome man, great help and info available here. Make sure you head along to Mazdafest in July - it'll be the biggest rotary gathering the country has ever seen. Details are in the rotary meets section and throw up some pictures of the new bus
  44. 2 likes
    Welcome to the world of the Rotards![emoji23][emoji106] Get yourself a 231ps 6 speed RX8 fully loaded. Personally it's better than the 192ps 5 speed. Sorry 5 speed owners[emoji85] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    Just remember to label the injectors connections, the 4 yellow and 2 red. Almost fecked that up myself [emoji23][emoji23] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    I know Aido - I promised them I'd use it responsibly and they believed me!!! im busy trying to turn my dog white at the moment
  47. 2 likes
    Treated her to some redline mt90 and a good spanking. 2nd-3rd & 3rd-4th change at redline now smooth as Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    Did you paint your clear tank black? You do know that the earlier cars (like mine) came with a black tank, though I had to re-shape mine to get the 2T tank to fit... Update: Just had another look at yours and noted early brake master cylinder, so did yours have a black tank already?
  49. 2 likes
    Bumps The list has been updated... 43 track spots filled...28 are paid
  50. 2 likes
    Cheers @Aido 8 - painted the screen wash tank as well today. Done under there for a bit now